LavaLit
General => News => Topic started by: Damon Caskey on November 05, 2008, 05:18:52 pm
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So we don't clog the shout box. Here are the shouts so far:
Skull Kings
OBAMA!!!
DJGameFreakTheIguana
BARACK OBAMA IS THE NEW PRESIDENT, BY LANDSLIDE VICTORY!!!
Damon Caskey
I don't like it since he is way too liberal for my tastes, but the GOP was screwed no matter what; better to have Obama then nutjob Hillary.
Legend76
I just hope he has a back bone and doesn't cowtow to Nancy Palosy and Hary Read or our pocket books will really be hurting.
Fightn Words
A President is pretty much helpless to whatever events are happening at the time he's in office. He does have more political influence via his party, but it's still a shell game at best. I hope he's able to change some things at least.
Hanzo
For me as a African-American Obama break racial barriers to become the first African-American president but I won't say he will change everything but there's some things that need to be change
Damon Caskey
His race doesn't mean anything to me. I don't care if a guy is black, white, or green with yellow polka dots. I think he's a brilliant and well meaning guy, but some of his ideas are dangerously leaning toward socialism. Here in KY, we think the government is there to enforce the law, build roads, and otherwise stay out of our lives.
Hanzou
But the law can be twisted bended or snapped of any form to suppress people's rights
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People are like wating for a change but that won't happen until he is in the white house but the politics will still be the same throughout thick and thin.
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Well we can only wait to see what Happens :)
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No matter what the outcames to be.....
We'll just wait and see.
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Why is this in OpenBOR discussion? Is someone making a Obama vs. McCain mod? :laughing:
Anyhow, I think it's cool that we finally elected a black president; it's true that race doesn't really matter, but for the longest time a large portion of America has disagreed with that. As for Obama himself, he seems like a decent guy and I'll take him over Palin being a 72 year old's heart attack away from presidency. She just seemed way too inexperienced for my tastes.
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Opps, I meant to put this in General Discussions; my bad. Moving now.
DC
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Too late!
Is this the first case of a ninja'd thread movement? (gotta think of a better term for that).
Politics isn't really my bag so I'll be stepping out again now.
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And while you were doing that I was moving it to News.. Double Ninja KO!! :wow!:
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Tch. The sad thing is hardly anyone who voted for the guy even took the time of day to look him up. They see the "change" signs and they checked a few things at his FactCheck.org and they were sold. Meanwhile, 24 voters in the electoral college are refusing to cast any ballots until he produces his birth certificate*, which he suspiciously doesn't want to make public for some odd reason. Not to mention how his own VP one year ago said he is far from ready for office and made the claim that, "If elected, no more than 6 months after his inauguration, the world will test him with a crisis". This was his own VP, Joe Biden. Of course, you can't blame it all on the people though.. there was HARDLY anything negative about him in the media (whereas it was at least 8 of 10 times something bad about McCain). Still. I have the clean conscience that I didn't put him in there.**
There's just far too many other things that's shady about him, and I had hoped my country would be smarter than this. :( However, I'm going to put some faith in God that this guy might actually be a good president. I sincerely hope the bad feeling I had in my gut when I was watching his speech that night was for nothing. And if he proves to be a good man in these next 4 years, I'll be more than happy to admit I was wrong.
*In the US, one of the basic credentials needed to be a candidate for presidency is to be born in the USA. Also, as a nation we the people have a right to demand the medical records and birth certificate of anyone in office; be it congressman, senator, or president.
**I voted for Bob Barr, soley for the reason that I wanted neither McCain nor Obama in office, but still wanted to excercise my right to vote.
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Well honestly, this was the last site I thought I was going to see a political topic like this, even if it's the genneral section, or something like that,...Anyways, it's not something I don't like or hate, just didn't know is was going to be that big to be included here, in Openbor site hehehe...All I can say is:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/lobotomysurvivor/obama-combo.jpg)
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Hey Nick, looks like you feel about the way I do. Sort of.
I'm not really suspicious of Obama as a person or anything. I really do think he is on the up and up, as much as a politician can be anyway, and that he means well. I just don't agree with the vast majority of his ideas.
Look, progressivism always sounds great on paper. I mean, who doesn't like the feel good idea that nobody can loose? The problem is that in reality, it just doesn't work that way. Power ALWAYS corrupts. Always. 200,000 years of human history has taught us that. The liberals want the government to make sure nobody can ever loose. Sounds great. But be careful what you wish for. A government that is powerful enough to give you anything you need is powerful enough to take everything you have.
And they won't do it all at once, nor will they do it on purpose. It comes little by little and in the guise of "helping the children". No one is out to take your rights just because, but each and every liberal has his or her own pet rock that they think will make the world a better place by "guiding" rest of us uneducated simpltons via the goverments power...for our own good of course. As they keep piling it on, we loose more and more of our simple freedoms.
In the last two years, liberals in this city alone have managed to completely ban smoking in any business, are near banning it outright (in your own HOME), have all but outlawed trade shows (people here like to collect antique firearms), and are slowly but surly working heir way up to compulsory child regestration. They do this by invoking the "good for children" thing.
OK, smoke is bad. I don't smoke and I don't like it around me. But telling another person he can't do so in his home? It's not pot, it doesn't addle the brain or cause car accidents like alcohol. Who is benifiting by telling him he can't? The smoker? Hey, if he wants to puff 5 packs a day in own his house, that's darwanism at work if you ask me.
The gun thing is just hilarious. Crime rates in the US have been drooping since the 70's, not increasing. Except of course in the inner cities where firearms are banned by local ordinance. And if that debate doesn't suit your fancy, how about the fact that the majority of trade shows are dealing in non functional firmarms. These are colltables that you couldn't make work if you wanted to. Last time I checked, nobody pulled has ever pulled a drive by with an 1868 Winchester.
And finally the child regestration. Right now it is a simple free video taping, blood sampling, and recording of all of your child's personal information. It is advertised as anti-kidnapping. Boy doesn't that sound nice. But think about that long and hard. A permenant video database of every piece of personal information for every person that goes through this. Its already being considered a mandate, and if it is you are looking at the beginning of a scary world. Oh, and I might add, exactly HOW does this help prevent anything happening to the child? Simple answer: it doesn't. None of this information is in the public domain, so who outside the goverment will ever use it?
Now maybe you don't care about smoke, or guns, or aren't bothered by a government that wants a full video database on children as they come of age. But you better. Because when they are done taking away the things that are easy to play off as harmful, they'll use the momentum to take things away you'd never think possible. Maybe in 10 years you won't be allowed to cross state borders without filing to do so 3 days in advance. Another 10 and you'll have to file for residence almost like getting citzenship in the country. They'll do this under the premise of catching dangerous criminals on the run, so as to "protect your children". Sound far fetched? Think about it. Anyone here over 25 just think back a bit about how your speech and freedoms have been eroded by both parties (how about the politically correct craze), but more so the liberals.. and tell me with straight honesty we won't head that way.
Both major parties in the US are guilty of this, and the slide is inevitable, because again, "progressivism" is just an easy sell. But I'll stick to the reds because even though they do it, they do it a little slower then the blues.
Do I think Bush was a good president? No I don't. But Al Gore? The man is a nut case with no concept of reality. John Kerry may not have been too bad, but Howard Dean would have been a disaster.
McCain probably would be a footnote president known for turning the eccomy around (because the eccomnomy WILL turn around in about a year no matter what. It's cyclical people, and it's always been that way.) Otherwise, he wouldn't do much and I would have been fine with that. Obama? He will bring in sweeping change and levels of government regulation bordering on a state controlled economy. If you own a corner grocery store, the dems will classify you as "rich" because you have a 250,000+ cash flow and tax you to the gills for it. Never mind that your yearly profits might amount to about 17-19k and the kid working at Blockbuster takes home more money then you. And because the ecomnomy will take its cyclical upswing, Obama will be credited for turning it all around, making it easiser to justify even more extreme state control.
It's a dark time indeed for people who just want to be lefft alone...
DC
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:eek: ......
* Nick slow claps
You've won a new level of respect with me, DC. Seems that the only difference in our thinking is that I think he's shady and you don't. Other than that, I have to say that whole little speech of yours was spot on my friend. Well done, good sir. :applauding:
Because when they are done taking away the things that are easy to play off as harmful, they'll use the momentum to take things away you'd never think possible.
Patriot Act, anyone? Although I'll admit it right now, I was just fine with it until they suspended Habeas Corpus. Thats where I drew the line with that.
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until he produces his birth certificate
Photographs of his birth certificate have already been shown on the news many times. That's just another Republican scare-tactic to paint Obama as a weird foreigner.
"If elected, no more than 6 months after his inauguration, the world will test him with a crisis"
That's when Biden was running against Obama. You hear some of the things Bush said about McCain when they were running against each other in 2000?
I'm actually sorry I read this thread, but hopefully we can all continue to make good mods and help each other even if we fiercely disagree. :)
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His race doesn't mean anything to me. I don't care if a guy is black, white, or green with yellow polka dots. I think he's a brilliant and well meaning guy, but some of his ideas are dangerously leaning toward socialism. Here in KY, we think the government is there to enforce the law, build roads, and otherwise stay out of our lives.
I don't know if in America things works like in Italy: here the two factions ("centro destra" and "centro sinistra", consider that Obama could be located in the "centro-sinistra" side and MCain in the "centro-destra" one) are actually (not ideally) veeery similar (this is why they don't like each other :laughing:) and the "color of the skin" (the age, in my country case) would make the difference at a social level.
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DesignerSpecial, don't be upset that people debate politics. It's actually a selling point of this forum that we can discuss such a polarizing issue and stay civil.
Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you have to think less of them. I know danno and myself for instance probably have absolutely opposite views on things, but so? He's an awsome dude and our having different opinions doesn't change that. I have several RL friends who are so far left their right again; we debate for hours, but it doesn't affect us. That's one of the things that make the world great.
Political discourse in a civil manor with passionate views on both sides is a sign of intelligence and maturity. Can you imagine this discussion taking place on just about any other forum?
DC
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Some of your views have merit, but I can't agree with everything. I understand that American's (even up here in the northern part) love to have their gun's, but if you want to chose one single statistic that contributes to lethal crime, it would be the guns. Look at other country's by comparison and you'll see what I mean. Not that I think this will EVER change, but I have to at least point it out.
Also, whether or not your a died in the wool Republican, you have to admit that the Republicans have really screwed the pooch politically. Their economic vision of allowing the economy to do 'whatever' and to ignore the needs of the lower & middle class- it's had it's day. Don't worry though, if history has taught us anything it's that the two party's balance of power shifts like a pendulum. Inevitably it'll shift back again.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if our country went back to isolationism and left the rest of the globe to it's own devices. If everything is not as far gone as I hope it is then it's still possible to stay out of police actions & wars. I understand the need for a certain amount of so called security, but our country is ridiculous with the amount of arms & weapons our military has. Don't kid yourself for a minute that it's for anything other then money/power. I agree with you about Child Registration & as for the Patriot Act- I'd call that thing anything but patriotic.
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All the American countries are now in the hands of Socialist leaders, I dont know what will happen now... 30 years ago we had all the military fascist goverments, it cant get worse than that...
Maybe, now that we are in a global crisis, people will see how stupid this sistem is...
Years and years of Right-BLue-Derecha-Destra-Republican goverments lead us to this, why not change? If is not working, lets change it!
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We aren't as far from each other as you think. I should probably clarify though, I am NOT a died in the wool Republican. In fact I'm not even registered with a party; I'm an independent voter. What I am is a died in the wool conservative. There is a big difference. And by that, I mean I am a real conservative.
Basically, I'll run my beliefs down in a nutshell:
I believe in being left alone fiscally and leaving others alone in turn. Again, the government is there because it has to be. Without a government there is chaos. But that to me is as far as it goes. Anything else governments mess with, they screw up. So build roads, protect the borders, enforce the law, and otherwise stay the heck out of my life. That is their job. My job is to be an active participating citizen (monitor issues and vote), pay my taxes, and follow the rule of law.
I believe the rule of law is absolute, but the laws themselves should be kept to an absolute minimum. So did the founding fathers; the constitution is barely four pages long and has served as our foundation for 232 years; longer then any other standing sovereign government's framework. Kind of like how I administrate this forum. There aren't many rules, but they are absolute. In other words you can express whatever you want, just be clean and don't be a jerk. I see the real world in pretty much the same terms.
I'm not jealous of people who have more then me, and though I occasionally feel guilty, I don't think I've done anything wrong because I have more then others. I have a cushy position now, but I've worked jobs most people wouldn't go near, and I'd do it again if I had to. I feel thankful life is good to me and my family. By that same token, I'm all about helping others when left to my own volition. When it is forced on me though, that's another matter. I'm not one of those jerks who says "work harder, it always pays off". No, hard work doesn't always pay off. But I do think you should do it anyway. Do what you can, and then others will help you without being asked. Besides, work really is its own reward if you take pride in what you do.
Donating to local charities and giving time to help poverty stricken individuals? You bet. That's helping people. But
being taxed over money I don't really have just because it flows through me (the story of pretty much any small business) and then watching it get redistributed to someone thousands of miles away? That's just legalized robbery.
Financial responsibility is mine, not my banker's. I just bought a house two weeks ago. I waited 5 years for the right timing to get one. It's a nice place, but it isn't some lifeless overblown McMansion I can't afford. Had I gone and done that, I wouldn't expect you guys to come help me out. But that's essentially what the bailout is. If you let a salesman talk you into buying something you can't afford, who's fault is it? Loans are just another sold commodity. People bought more then they could afford, and the banks were simply doing what we, the shareholders were telling them to do. It's no different then when a retailer sells someone a 70" TV they can't afford, saturates their market by building three stores in a small town and goes under. Everybody had a hand in the mess and nobody deserves a bailout. Give it 2 years, and it would have sorted itself out with the smart investors who didn't speculate being the winners. And uhm, aren't those the ones you'd want running the banks?
On guns, well, yes, I want my guns. I was raised in a gun shop. But I explained my view on guns with smoke. I hate smoke. Smokers piss me off when they do it around me. But I wouldn't dream of supporting anything that takes their rights. Why? Well, that should be easy. If all you care about is me, me, me, and it's cool to take away someone else's rights because it doesn't affect you, well, who will care when they finally come for your sacred cow? Answer: no one.
I believe in religious freedom, but also that there has to be some form of majority rule. I will NOT call anything a "holiday whatever". It's a Christmas tree, a Christmas party, etc. Nobody makes you participate if you are of a differing religion, there just happens to be more of the Christian persuasion here because that is how the country was founded. So how about learning to look away for a month? Does the lighted garland and a nativity scene hurt your eyes that much? If I were in Japan, I wouldn't dream of suing someone for seeing a Buddha statue in town square.
That's pretty much it. Do the Republicans follow that? NO WAY. But they are closer the the Democrats, so that's why I usually vote red. No matter what I'm gonna vote, but I don't see a reason to waste a vote on an unelectable third party, and so I usually go Republican as the lesser of two evils.
*Please keep in mind this is simply me stating my personal beliefs; I make no claim as to whether they or the thoughts of others are "right" or "wrong". It's merely how I think and see the world (in relation to politics anyway).
DC
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The political from both parties are different but they share a common interest and that is money.
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:-X
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First off I want to say appreciative I am of this thread and its awesome to see that as usual we can all contribute our view points and weather or not we agree with with all the posted points made we can do so civilly.
I have lived out side of Chicago almost all of my life so I have a lot of exposer to the more liberal side of politics, referred to as the combine or chicago machine here in IL. However I was raised in a fairly traditional and conservative family so as I have matured and now have a family of my own I find myself drawn further to the moderate side of things. I agree that government should leave us alone for the most part. I feel that our nation was founded on the principles of those personal freedoms that DC had described.
I would add to those principles, and here is were this become relevant to this election, the Judicial branch of our government was devised to INTERPRITE the Constitution make decisions on laws pasted by the legislative and executive branches as to there constitutional validity.
In my opinion "the far left" tends to appoint judges that use there power to pass rulings on laws or cases based on an agenda rather that rendering there decisions based on wether or not a case is justified constitutional or not.
I also feel strongly about accountability for individuals as well as companies here, Again right along with DC, I feel that a dangerous precedence was set with the now $850 Billion bailout as bad brokers, high risk lenders, delinquent home owners and greedy hedgefunders should all be held accountable for there actions. I would love to by a 90k Nissan R35 GTR but the insurance alone would bankrupt me so I'll stick with my little fun to drive Tiburon because its something I can AFORD.
Now I here that the big three are asking for a hand out form the government.
Sorry but they relied on big fuel thirsty SUV's as their cash cow for too long. Not to mention I feel that if you make a crappy product ( as a tech I can't tell you how many GM intake gaskets or Chrysler Transmissions I've done :eyebrow_action:) that fails a lot then you deserve to fail. To bottom line it this falls short of a free market economy and is more in line with socialism.
I'll end my rant for now ;)
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Politics Isn't my thing so I can't make a Giant post about it, but I wanted to Vote for Obama Cause I felt his Views were better than McCains, at least to Me, but I wasn't registered. I actually watched the Election on Comedy Central where Jon Stewert and Colbert was coverin' it for an hour :)
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No offence to DJGameFreakTheIguana, I know that you said politics isn't your thing and although I do find Stewert funny, I often worry about people who form their political opinions from what is depicted in shows like SNL and the daily show. I fear that they are missing the point of these shows which is satire and so anything depicted on these programs should be taken with a grain of salt.
Again I'm nothing against DJGameFreakTheIguana for watching Stewert.
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I'm not jealous of people who have more then me, and though I occasionally feel guilty, I don't think I've done anything wrong because I have more then others. I have a cushy position now, but I've worked jobs most people wouldn't go near, and I'd do it again if I had to. I feel thankful life is good to me and my family. By that same token, I'm all about helping others when left to my own volition. When it is forced on me though, that's another matter. I'm not one of those jerks who says "work harder, it always pays off". No, hard work doesn't always pay off. But I do think you should do it anyway. Do what you can, and then others will help you without being asked. Besides, work really is its own reward if you take pride in what you do.
I don't think your success is anything to be ashamed of, quite the contrary. I totally agree. You get what you put in, sometimes it's not fair but that's life. I admit, you have a solid point about smoking. I think the consensus is that it 'hurts' people and so is therefore bad to encourage.
In my opinion "the far left" tends to appoint judges that use there power to pass rulings on laws or cases based on an agenda rather that rendering there decisions based on wether or not a case is justified constitutional or not.
I also feel strongly about accountability for individuals as well as companies here, Again right along with DC, I feel that a dangerous precedence was set with the now $850 Billion bailout as bad brokers, high risk lenders, delinquent home owners and greedy hedgefunders should all be held accountable for there actions. I would love to by a 90k Nissan R35 GTR but the insurance alone would bankrupt me so I'll stick with my little fun to drive Tiburon because its something I can AFORD.
Now I here that the big three are asking for a hand out form the government.
Sorry but they relied on big fuel thirsty SUV's as their cash cow for too long. Not to mention I feel that if you make a crappy product ( as a tech I can't tell you how many GM intake gaskets or Chrysler Transmissions I've done :eyebrow_action:) that fails a lot then you deserve to fail. To bottom line it this falls short of a free market economy and is more in line with socialism.
Well thats why the status quo of politics just won't cut it anymore; that is- the Republican viewpoint of allowing businesses free reign to make dumb mistakes with no consequences, it's written on the wall. I'm not a one party man either, I'm more or less one of the 'inbetween' types. This is what people have essentially forgotten in this country, that the Constitution sais We The People- as in us, we are the government. That means we have the power to fight corruption if it's something we really want. There are a great many ways in which this could be accomplished- but I digress.
I often worry about people who form their political opinions from what is depicted in shows like SNL and the daily show. I fear that they are missing the point of these shows which is satire and so anything depicted on these programs should be taken with a grain of salt.
Infotainment! I do think people like Rush Limbaugh or Bill O' Reilly are worse, but it's all just nonsense anyway.
Danno, I get the feeling you have something to say but your holding back. :)
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Infotainment! I do think people like Rush Limbaugh or Bill O' Reilly are worse, but it's all just nonsense anyway.
The point I'm making is that the daily show and SNL are satire O' Reilly and Limbaugh are commentators they are up front about there positions on politics. You need to find a reporter who reports from an objective "just the facts" stand point.
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The problem with that is there is no such thing. 90% of media is liberally biased, and the part that isn't tends to be filled with hypocritical nuts like Limbaugh who give conservatives a bad image.
It's no wonder the left is always winning. A conservative message is a tougher sell on its own. It doesn't help when your "spokespeople" are outnumbered 200 to 1 and are all obtuse morons with diarrhea of the mouth.
DC
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No offence to DJGameFreakTheIguana, I know that you said politics isn't your thing and although I do find Stewert funny, I often worry about people who form their political opinions from what is depicted in shows like SNL and the daily show. I fear that they are missing the point of these shows which is satire and so anything depicted on these programs should be taken with a grain of salt.
Again I'm nothing against DJGameFreakTheIguana for watching Stewert.
I get what Your sayin, And even though I do what the 2 shows almost every night, my Opinion on Obama and McCain wasn't based on the two shows alone. but then agian I learned lots of things from Comidiens, but I digress.
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The problem with that is there is no such thing. 90% of media is liberally biased, and the part that isn't tends to be filled with hypocritical nuts like Limbaugh who give conservatives a bad image.
Tell me about it! That is a lot of what I see on all of the major networks.
I think that if there is anything positive that conservatives can take away from this election its that this will serve as a notice that they need to reach out to younger voters and minorities. I think that was a major key to Obama's campane success. I may not agree with a lot of his ideas, but I can give him credit for running a well organised campain.
I get what Your sayin, And even though I do what the 2 shows almost every night, my Opinion on Obama and McCain wasn't based on the two shows alone. but then agian I learned lots of things from Comidiens, but I digress.
I'm glad to here that, DJGameFreakTheIguana. I think that when you get more sources to form your opinions than the more informed your decisions in the voting box will be. And I have to say that comics like Chris Rock and Ron White have a raw honesty that I find enlightening.
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Tch. The sad thing is hardly anyone who voted for the guy even took the time of day to look him up. They see the "change" signs and they checked a few things at his FactCheck.org and they were sold.
This is so true. I've got this online class that I'm taking for the sole purpose of fulfilling my diversity requirement where we're supposed to learn about diversity by talking with each other. Anyhow, I was just about the one in there this week not having an Obamagasm. They're just like "OMG OBAMA WILL CHANGE EVERYTHING I'M SO HAPPY" and I was just groaning.
I mean I like Obama well enough and if I'd had time to vote I'd have voted for him as an anti-Palin defense shield, but there's plenty of stuff, most of it already covered in this thread, to be concerned about. One of the things that bugged me the most was how much he talked about fixing the economy; it just felt like he was taking advantage of the situation. It's something that's affecting a lot of people, but it's not something that he's going to be able to fix much better than McCain would have. Though I'll take back those words if he creates a magical new economy where we never have recessions.
Not that the right wing people are any better than the left:
BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA IS THE ANTICHRIST HIS NAME IS 18 LETTERS WHICH IS 6+6+6!!!!!!
Oh, people.
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I won't disagree that he's a consummate politician (don't hate the player hate the game), but I'd rather we have someone who knows how to grease the wheels then the alternative. He made a lot of promises and common sense will tell you that theirs no way all or even half of them is likely to come to pass, so I'm just as skeptical as anyone as to what he'll actually accomplish. As I understand it he just got elected and isn't technically in office yet- I guess time will tell what happens. If he turns out to be a frog we can always elect another President.
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Congratulations to everyone in the US! I really welcome Obama as a new president who for a change is the first in decades who's not a fan of Reaganism/Thatcherism and will at least try to fight poverty!
Obama's election will have a huge influence on politics all over the world, and it might slow down neo-liberalism / libertarianism in Europe as well.
:cheers!:
- I wish that you guys finally get the free public health-care that the rest of the developed world has! And that he may do the things required to save your country's economy from collapsing!
And to you neo-liberals / libertarians: Now you know how people felt for decades that do not agree with your point of view. - It sucks, but live goes on.
Exciting times!
:in_love:
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He made a lot of promises and common sense will tell you that theirs no way all or even half of them is likely to come to pass, so I'm just as skeptical as anyone as to what he'll actually accomplish.
Yup and if he's wanting an 8 year term, which I know he does, than he'll have to play to the center to garner support from moderates.
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It all depends on what comes to pass. After Bush Jr. I became very jaded about politics in general, it's really because of him that I started to become more self-aware. If he does good, I'd love to see him elected again. Even McCain wasn't a bad choice honestly (he has a great reputation), I just think Obama has more to offer. I hope.
- I wish that you guys finally get the free public health-care that the rest of the developed world has!
Me too! I could really use it right now.
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Public health care is the very, very LAST thing the U.S. needs. I've been up close and personal to government run healthcare both through my employment and family experience. It isn't a pretty sight. Walk into a VA or government supported nursing facility and have a look around at the dingy lifeless atmosphere.
Sit for a few minutes and watch the glass eyed staff mill about, unmotivated and unconcerned. Have a chat with one of the doctors (who will likely have a tenuous grasp of English and thus be very difficult to communicate with). Who cares if you can't understand the guy selling you a milkshake or hotel room, but do you really want to have communication issues with your DOCTOR?! You'll also find they are transient and using the place as a stepping stone. There is no chance to build any doctor patient relationship, and the doctor has no motivation to excell or care for the people in his pratice (because it isn't his/her's at all). That's the current reality of government run healthcare.
Here at UK, there is no better way to see the contrast, as the UK hospital is literally connected to the regional VA via walk tunnel. It's like driving in a city and passing over to the wrong side of the tracks. That's the future of all healthcare if it goes universally public.
DC
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You said it DC! My wife actually has contacts with some vets from her work and the stories she hears are disheartening. Those who have given so much to this country and this is what the gov. provides back to them? No thanks.
It all depends on what comes to pass. After Bush Jr. I became very jaded about politics in general, it's really because of him that I started to become more self-aware.
Don't forget that the Dem's have had control of congress for 2 years now, they are FAR from blameless as far as our current economic stand point. Barny Frank, Chris Dobbs are IMO very connected to the who Fannie May and Freddy Mac debacle. Unfortunately most people don't pay attention to things like that and go straight to blaming the guy at the top for everything.
Not that Bush is blameless either, but come on! Everyone mentions the Pres's approval ratings, but look at congresse's they're in the teens! Thats abysmal at best!
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Yeah , I have absolutely zero faith in public health services and would gladly welcome it's demise.
I've had my fair share of bad experiences both personally and through the media. Many public health services are only marginally better than a hospital in some third world country.....
One "funny" example was when I slashed my leg the other month. I went up to a nurse , poking the muscles back into leg , blood everywhere... All she said was "And what's wrong with you?"
After explaining my situation , I had to wait for 4 hours before being attended to......
Money is a big motivator , even in healthcare.
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With respect guys, I disagree.
I've had some of these same experiences with my regular medical visits. It's something that has nothing to do with who's footing the bill. I've also had good stories- I really think this has more to do with how the place is run. Medical insurance is outrageously expensive, and if you get sick (which no one plans on) your basically screwed. Well I'm in that situation right now, and I have to say I'm completely dependent on what coverage I do have- I need my coverage. I'm not exaggerating by saying that my situation has kept me from working like I'd like to be. If not for Medicaid, I would be much worse off or dead- but even Medicaid doesn't cover everything. Theirs a medicine I don't think it covers that I could really use.
Don't forget that the Dem's have had control of congress for 2 years now, they are FAR from blameless as far as our current economic stand point. Barny Frank, Chris Dobbs are IMO very connected to the who Fannie May and Freddy Mac debacle. Unfortunately most people don't pay attention to things like that and go straight to blaming the guy at the top for everything.
I don't blame Bush at all for the economic crisis. It's because our country has almost no control's in place for big business- also, it's a cyclical thing- something you can't put too much blame on a single president for- much as I'd like to. :)
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I don't blame Bush at all for the economic crisis. It's because our country has almost no control's in place for big business- also, it's a cyclical thing- something you can't put too much blame on a single president for- much as I'd like to.
Yup I do believe that some of this started when the housing marked began its decline over a year ago. I think some of that is the market correcting itself. In the Chicagoland area your average house on the market has dropped to 250-300 K which IMO is still a lot, considering that only 10years ago it was 125-150. Maybe its me but I feel that if you looked at pricing on cars. A civic for example: 10 years ago retailed for around 16k, would now be around 30k, which is to high a rise in price in such a short time. So logically the market now is reacting to this.
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Your dead on right, it was the housing. It was all about the greed and lack of common sense or foresight. All they saw were magical dollar signs, and of course the expectation now is to bail them out. It's a ridiculous situation. Problem is, in a certain sense we do have some responsibility to help our economy otherwise we wouldn't be bailing some of them out. Unfortunately.
*EDIT* Sorry if it seems like I'm monopolizing this thread, guys. As you can probably tell I'm passionate about this stuff.
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Money is the root of all evil but now it makes sense nowadays.
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I'm cautiously okay with this guy being president. I'm not jumping-up-and-down excited about it like all the other people young people I know. I'm kinda wary about Obama because he is so popular and it was trendy to support him. I've got an indy music fan sort of mentality toward things, so I'm inclined to think that popular, mainstream stuff sucks.
Also, many Obama supporters I've ran into seem to be really intolerant of people who have different opinions than them. It's like "OMG Sarah Palin doesn't believe a woman's right to choose to kill her unborn baby? WTF How can she call herself a woman? She's not a real woman!" I don't mind abortion, but I just found it kinda hypocritical since the Democratic party's gimmick is that they're supposedly tolerant of people with many different backgrounds.
I also think his taxing business plan is dumb; big business won't want to see their profit margins shrink, so they're just going to increase the prices on their product, neutralizing the tax break for the common man since cost of living will go up.
He does have upsides, though. He'd be better for diplomatic relations with friendly countries (we'll see how he does with hostile ones soon enough), for the lower-to-middle class (though I'm concerned about how he's going to pay for all of it) and for race relations.
I'm mostly curious as to whether or not he'll back up his flowery speeches with actions and results. If he actually makes the country better, that's great. If he ruins it even more, I'll be laughing at all the suckers who bought into his crap while I pack up my things and move to Australia.
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Also, many Obama supporters I've ran into seem to be really intolerant of people who have different opinions than them. It's like "OMG Sarah Palin doesn't believe a woman's right to choose to kill her unborn baby? WTF How can she call herself a woman? She's not a real woman!" I don't mind abortion, but I just found it kinda hypocritical since the Democratic party's gimmick is that they're supposedly tolerant of people with many different backgrounds.
Ain't that the truth. I've gotten into some heated arguments at school with Obama supporters... as flowery and nice as the guy speaks, the people who voted for him foam at the mouth if you hint at something negative towards him.
:laughing: And on the subject of abortion real quick, well... From a moral standpoint, I can argue with it all day about how wrong it is, but from a legal standpoint, it's complete hypocrisy. How? In the US you have murderers on death row like Scott Peterson who only technically murdered one person but was charged for two: for their wife and for their unborn child. Now, I ask you; how can a judge possibly give a man a death sentence for the murder of an unborn child, when if he had done it as doctor with a PH.D it would have been just another legal and ethical business transaction?
What scares me about the above comment, though, is that I'm not even a lawyer yet and I'm already coming up with scumbag defense attorney arguments. Great :nervous:
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On abortion, my stance is the one I've had since my professor in an anatomy class said this:
"At around seven and a half weeks, the fetus begins to emanate the same brain waves whose absence we use to determine legal death. Why shouldn't these same waves be used to determine when life begins?"
To me, that seems like the way to go; I can't speak from experience obviously, but that seems like it would be long enough for someone to find out they're pregnant and get an abortion if they want to. And also, I've got no problem with the special cases like rape and when the child puts the mother's life at risk.
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tp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=65I0HNvTDH4
XD
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_TiQCJXpbKg
I like this version better. ;D
EDIT - Though this one is my favorite 2008 election video:
http://www.jibjab.com/originals/time_for_some_campaignin
You can always count on JibJab to make fun of both candidates equally. :laughing:
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I've gotten into some heated arguments at school with Obama supporters... as flowery and nice as the guy speaks, the people who voted for him foam at the mouth if you hint at something negative towards him.
I agree that people should be more tolerant to valid arguments, but that goes for all sides.
That's the future of all healthcare if it goes universally public.
I come from the future and it's not like that at all. =P
If not for Medicaid, I would be much worse off or dead- but even Medicaid doesn't cover everything. Theirs a medicine I don't think it covers that I could really use.
...
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I come from the future and it's not like that at all. =P
You come from the future in another country, which is NOTHING like the U.S. in terms of scale. This is the worlds largest GDP, 3'd (or second depending on how statistics are measured) largest land area, with almost 300 million people, and divided into states that each function as fully independent entities, some of which would easily qualify as countries in their own right.
The bureaucracy it takes to govern the U.S. is unlike any in the world, then it is further hampered with deep cultural divides and the world's most diverse ethic population. It is simply isn't feasible for our government to perform minute tasks like manage a healthcare system at the national level. The end result would be a bureaucratic moneypit requiring reform every 5-6 years, providing moderately competent care with an effective tax burden far greater then insurance rates are now. No thanks.
DC
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Yeah...I gave up being serious about politics aloooooooong time ago...