Selling OpenBoR Indie Games?

[kungpow12345]

Now, I know this title might sound a bit confusing but this is a discussion that is meant for the OpenBoR Development team. If I put this in the wrong place, I apologize.

In 2007, I ventured to make the first OpenBoR indie game, Yumi: Samurai Warrior. Sadly, as my production team faltered and pretty much vanished under my feet, I hid away in embarrassment and developed my Sailor Moon game series for which I'm known for today. The last few months, I've slowly but surely began to rebuild and "restructure", if you will, the game studio that was going to produce Yumi, recruiting key members of the Destiny Revival team and other people that I've known over the years.

Now I've read the license.txt that comes with the engine so I'm well aware of the rules that are now involved with OpenBoR but it does say that I need to discuss a possible selling of a game with the game engine with the development team. In 2007, if I recall, we had a hard time coming to a conclusion about what to do since there were so many people involved with the engine and our idea of a royalty fee per game didn't pan out. Today, I would like to offer the idea again and treat it like a donation toward Lavalit to keep the website up and running.

The game I'm going to try to create this time around is based on a web comic of which contents can not be discussed right now under a NDA that I have previously set with the web comic's designer and vice versa. I can say that the content of the game will again be original content as with Yumi so the conditions of selling the game has not changed. However, the production targets of selling the game will change. Of course, I would like to target the Sega Dreamcast as a sole base because its always been a favorite of mine and well, the Dreamcast deserves an indie beat 'em up. Now depending on how things are decided here, I would like to compile OpenBoR ports for Xbox Live Arcade, Playstation Network and Wiiware.

Through my gaming team, which I'm working on making an LLC company with a friend of mine, I do plan on covering the costs to host the game on both Xbox Live Arcade and Playstation Network. Still need to get more information on how Wiiware games are handled but that'll come in due time. The main thing I wanted to get settled first is wither or not selling indie OpenBoR games is still possible under the license and of course get the ok from the developers here.

I am willing to do whatever is possible to sell an original indie OpenBoR game, especially to please my lavalit breathen and make everyone happy.
 
I am ready for feedback, guidance and orders from the Developers.

[Plombo]

Doing so is possible, but it will be rather complicated.  Mostly because so many people have contributed to OpenBOR, and there has never been any copyright assignment policy except for assigning copyright to "OpenBOR Team".  So the copyright on the OpenBOR engine is actually held by all engine developers, past and present.  

...Yeah, you guessed it.  Selling the engine requires the consent of every single engine developer, past and present.

Here's a hopefully complete list of the engine developers you would need to get permission from:
Current developers:

• SX
• Damon Caskey
• Orochi_X
• me

Past developers and contributors who are still active or semi-active LavaLit members:

• Roel (Senile Team)
• Kirby2000
• utunnels
• kbandressen
• gringo

Past developers and contributors who are not active LavaLit members:

• CGRemakes
• Tails
• Fugue (not sure if he ever even registered at LavaLit)
• Lord_Ball

For obvious reasons, the above list excludes authors of ports to platforms you're not targeting.

[kungpow12345]

I don't want to sound like a jerk here but I want to try to throw a bit of reality into this situation. Half of the members you listed have either left the scene or unable to be contacted (Fugue for example).

Honestly, I feel like under the current circumstances, the rules should be changed so that permission should be reviewed and given out by active and reachable members of Lavalit, past and present. Taking from your list, here is the list of people I know that can be reached here or I can reach them personally:

Current developers:
SX
Damon Caskey
Orochi_X
you

Past developers and contributors who are still active or semi-active LavaLit members:
Roel (Senile Team)
kbandressen

Past developers and contributors who are not active LavaLit members:
Lord_Ball

People who either might not respond or whom I do not have contact with:
gringo
CGRemakes
Tails
Fugue (not sure if he ever even registered at LavaLit)
Kirby2000
utunnels

Now, if this current method doesn't work out, I do have a new set of compromises that might be rewarding for other people who might want to do this. Following the motif of other engines (for example, the Unreal Engine), we should try to mold the release of future indie OpenBoR titles based on a "release royalty" to pay Lavalit back. I really think that's key now considering that Lavalit has to pay a fee to keep the website active for everyone.

One option would be that we can keep the OpenBoR engine free for everyone to use as normal but when games are created with original content and would like to be sold, it can be presented to the Lavalit team to acquire a securepak of the game and then request a release royalty per game and the price of the royalty fee can be managed depending on the demands of the site at the time. That way, this is a faster method of getting games approved.

Or...if you want to gear OpenBoR towards a "paid" license agreement, you can actually sell the engine with securepak capabilities for anyone that wants it and the funds would immediately go back to Lavalit. For instance, in my situation, I would like to use OpenBoR as my core game engine until I get other projects lined up that require different genres of gameplay, for example, RPGs. For me, doing a "per seat" royalty per year would be required since I would be constantly using OpenBoR for multiple game titles and it would be more cost efficient if I just paid a bulk sum so I can keep using the game engine for the games I'll create. Now some people might not be able to afford this every year, and would just require a "per game" royalty.

Going back to the original license agreement, the OpenBOR Team does have the right to reject any person's request for a royalty including for content of the game that the party is trying to sell, much like requests for securepaks are done today. For example, if (God forbid) someone tried to release a porn game or something, being able to block that release would be up to the active members here. Their decisions won't be just limited to just that, but it could be anything that's offensive in today's society or any member(s) of the team. If two parties, that being the developer and the OpenBoR team, do make an agreement to continue forward, they will still need to abide by the license agreement that is included with every release of the OpenBoR engine, especially the key points of not using the OpenBoR name or the game engine to solely promote themselves or the gaming company for that matter and that the OpenBOR logo and team should be included with every release, even if it's ported elsewhere. If new code is made for the game engine in the process, it should be presented to the Lavalit team in accordance with the License Agreement so it can be integrated into the overall engine so others will have the ability of using the features made, plus it helps the community make bigger and better engines down the road.

As you can probably tell, I've been working on this ALOT lately, especially to try to avoid the big mistakes that were made back in '07 with my last attempt. These ideas might be rejected but I really do feel like OpenBoR is ready for the big dogs and if Scott Pilgrim vs the World has taught us anything, it's that we can make some awesome games too. There are very talented people in our community that can do this and I'm not just speaking out for myself but for others that would like to get their first taste of actually working in the gaming industry and be given the chance to release their own games. I truly think OpenBoR is a great first step for anyone that wants to be serious about being a game developer and do it legally.

[Plombo]

I don't want to sound like a jerk here but I want to try to throw a bit of reality into this situation. Half of the members you listed have either left the scene or unable to be contacted (Fugue for example).

Honestly, I feel like under the current circumstances, the rules should be changed so that permission should be reviewed and given out by active and reachable members of Lavalit, past and present.

Look, I'm not trying to stop you from working on/selling your game.  I have no problem with that.  I simply described the legal issues associated.  I agree completely that the current situation needs to change.

By the way, there have never been any "rules" in place about this, and that's precisely where it comes from.  The absence of copyright assignment rules means copyright law comes into play, which leads to the situation of needing consent from all developers.  It's a problem that many open-source projects have had issues with in the past when attempting to change their licenses.

You likely wouldn't have any legal problems if you only got permission from the past and present developers who are still active community members.  It's just that we technically don't have any legal control over code written by other people.

All copyright in the engine is assigned to OpenBOR Team, but to my knowledge there is no definition of "OpenBOR Team" to describe who that includes.

[kungpow12345]

You likely wouldn't have any legal problems if you only got permission from the past and present developers who are still active community members.  It's just that we technically don't have any legal control over code written by other people.

So if I understand what you're saying, if I got at least the majority of the team to agree, then things can move forward? I appreciate your time in trying to explain what has to happen for consent, but I really wish that the other active developers can respond to this discussion so I know how everyone feels about this. Sadly, this discussion is reminding me of 2007 deja 'vu.  

Trying to get consent from everyone involved with the development of OpenBoR and yet only a few people respond to a simple request as laid out in the License agreement.

[SX]

All copyright in the engine is assigned to OpenBOR Team, but to my knowledge there is no definition of "OpenBOR Team" to describe who that includes.

Well put Plombo.  I would then recommend the following Developers as the official OpenBOR Team as these are the only ones that have contributed a significant amount over the last 4~5 years (wow has it been that long...)  All others are either unreachable and/or have abandoned the project.

S.X.     Engine/Ports
Plombo Engine/Ports
D.C.     Engine
O.X.     Engine
Roel     Creator of all things great!

[kungpow12345]

All copyright in the engine is assigned to OpenBOR Team, but to my knowledge there is no definition of "OpenBOR Team" to describe who that includes.

Well put Plombo.  I would then recommend the following Developers as the official OpenBOR Team as these are the only ones that have contributed a significant amount over the last 4~5 years (wow has it been that long...)  All others are either unreachable and/or have abandoned the project.

S.X.     Engine/Ports
Plombo Engine/Ports
D.C.     Engine
O.X.     Engine
Roel     Creator of all things great!

Thank you, SX. That makes things a whole lot easier. What all do I need to submit to receive the rights to use the game engine commercially? I think that's the next thing that needs to be laid out.

[SX]

I am going to have a discussion with team first.  Then I will get back to you.

[kungpow12345]

Bless you sir. I'll be waiting patiently for your reply. Like I said, I am open to any suggestions you have. I want to work this out so everyone involved feels good about it. I want to do this right as this is very unprecedented.

[zamuel]

I'm also working on a project so I'll need this info as well.

[Bloodbane]

 Same here. I'll wait for SX' answer .

[SX]

We are currently in discussions.  Once we are completed there will be a post in the FAQ section reguarding the outlined conditions for sales of the engine.

[masterderico]

This is confuse...;

OpenBor is a "expansion/upgrade" of the original Bor.
Bor is a senile team creation...

Dont need senile authorization also ?

[bWWd]

Roel is Senile

[masterderico]

Roel is Senile

I know...but only him ?